Are people allowed to have doubts

The middle-aged software validation analyst Rob Martin in his Book Review: The End of Unbelief writes

If you frequent enough Christian blogs and websites, you’ll soon discover that there is a perceived threat to Christianity in those people who claim to be either agnostic or atheistic in their view of the divine and faith. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

English: Promotional for wikimania 2008 banner...
Promotional for wikimania 2008 banner to be added to websites and blogs (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

We can find lots of atheist blogs writing against Christian Faith but also lots of blogs attacking Christian writers from other denominations than theirs. Certain church blogs or church websites are eager to spit on other church websites or to say other Christian websites or blogs are form the devil.

On the net we can find lots of sites which doubt the existence of God and the existence of Jesus.

The typical response to this “threat” is to argue using logical reasoning and rationality to prove God exists, that Jesus is God, and that in order to live a fulfilled life, one must accept Jesus as savior and make that jump from no belief to full belief in Christ. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

Those who say Jesus is God are pushed in the corner by those who say there is no god and as such Jesus can not have existed, though they forget Jesus is a historical figure like Plato, Euripedes, and others have been historical figures. Though often less is written about them nobody doubt that they existed and that they have done what is said about them. Strange then when we have the Nazarene man who was killed because he was too much of a log jam. The impediment Jew, who was to troublesome for the Romans and for the Jewish higher class, priests and Pharisees, was much more spoken off in his time and afterwards than many other historical figures everybody long after their death still accept that they existed. So why doubting about Jesus Christ, whose real name was Jeshua from Nazareth, from the tribe of king David.

When we do call ourselves Christian, which means a disciple of the Christ Jeshua, Christ Jesus, the Messiah or anointed)  we should do everything to know who Jesus was and do everything to follow up his teachings, and not that of other human beings.

Being a Christian we should believe in him who was so many years ago a living soul on this earth. We cannot

fault the belief that Jesus is the way to truth and fulfillment.

Living in this world we can not ignore it and should see what is happening in it and how people are behaving. In this world we also do have to not only observed the world around us, interact with people on a personal level who don’t believe as we do,we shall have to make choice and have to decide how much we would like others to know about our own faith.

We can spent time listening to and reading on different viewpoints of current culture and philosophy, and as Rob Martin points out

the trend towards agnosticism and atheism in Western culture today is not just simply a lack of belief in Jesus. It is much more fundamental than that and requires a different approach than the traditional “believe in Jesus” rhetoric of the past 60 years. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

Shane Hayes in his book The End of Unbelief: A New Approach to the Question of God writes

The trend toward agnosticism, atheism, and other forms of unbelief is gathering force, especially among the young. And churches simply don’t know how to counter it.

and presents in this book a fundamentally different approach to apologetics. It is true that the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities may not be known with certainty, that first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge, but that when we look around us and feel in our inner-being we can feel the ‘instinct’ and have that only one divine doctrine: to believe that there is A Divine Creator God. And that is really the only doctrine we should speak of, because all other matters are spoken of in the Bible and can be checked and proven.

Rather than defending Jesus as God, he brings a perspective where in the argument starts, first, with simply taking the step towards believing in a god. His argument is that it is not necessarily so much the existence of a deity that so much prevents people from converting to Christianity but the deity that is so frequently presented as the Christian God. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

Problem with many atheists but also with many Christians is that they cannot see the difference between divine, divinity and the Most High Divine. they also do not see to understand that there are titles being used in the world which may not be taken as name or as limited to only one individual, be it someone from this earth or some extraterrestrial being if there may be such beings.

Shane argues not from a perspective of a Christian who is trying to convince atheists to believe but from an agnostic who actually understands this perspective of skepticism and doubt and presents an argument that one can be a theist, even a Christian, and still be an agnostic. This is probably one of the most intriguing arguments that I’ve heard and it makes sense. From Shane’s perspective, there is a lot about believing in the divine and believing in the Christian God that is difficult to swallow from a purely logical and rational stand point. And, based upon some of the more “fundamentalist” arguments of needing to believe in certain literal interpretations of scripture, it seems that one needs to completely suspend their reason and logic in order to believe in the Christian God.

Christian Atheist (Peter Lumsden, d. 2007)
Christian Atheist (Peter Lumsden, d. 2007) (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

We also do believe Shane is right, that there can be a theist and a atheist, both doubting about matters of religious views and wondering about the or a divine God. Shane also speaks about a Christian God but does not say what he thinks Christians believe to be God or does not specifies the sort of Christians he is talking about or “which Christian God”. The anabaptist writer Martin does not specify that either.

To Martin, Shane and us it makes sense and it is okay to maintain doubts and scepticism.

As a creature, literally one who is created, for me to be able to fully comprehend the Creator and all of the Creator’s reasons and plans and purposes would mean that I would need to be on the level of the Creator myself, which I’m not. So, it makes perfectly rational and logical sense to admit that there are many things that we do not know for certain. And, as Shane points out, this is where faith steps in. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

We not only should come to understand our limitations of knowledge, we also should come to live with the acceptance of our limitations and our restricted views on certain matters. For man this is not so simple as it looks at first site. We mostly want to have an high esteem about ourselves and do not want to have others see our limitations and shortcomings. We even less want them to point them out to us. We mostly are too pride to admit that we have limitations and still have very much to learn.

But we should not be ashamed that we do not know everything and that we do still have to learn a lot. Better is to admit that and try to learn more instead of confiding and to be happy with what we think to know already.

When going to start to look for reasons why and how to live, to look for the beginning of life, God and the matters or stories around God His son Jesus we do have to look at the beginning of the world and have to find our place in it.

According to Shane

the best path from atheism to Christianity is not in the immediate jump but to simply take the small step towards a “pure” theism, that being in the belief that there is a deity but that it does not need to be, specifically, the Christian God (or any specific god for that matter). {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

Undoubted we do have to find the Creator or the starting point first. When we want to know more about Jesus we shall also get to know what he believed how the world came into being, Who is behind everything and what is going to happen next. We shall have to look to the first cause.

Shane his primary argument for theism comes also from the idea of a first cause.

No matter your belief in the beginnings of the universe, at some point there is a first cause is Shane’s argument. Logically speaking, it is just as plausible to believe in a deity as a first cause as any other force.For me, Shane’s most powerful chapter was the trial between faith and reason. This was a very well written allegorical representation of some of the more classical arguments for and against theism with the pro-theist argument taking the perspective that the good of the universe greatly outweighs the bad as an argument for a benevolent deity. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

We could say we should first come to the knowledge about the beginning of the universe and about the well or not being a Divine Creator. But that are aspects we leave mostly to be examined by other webpages, because here on this platform we go already one step further, though at certain points we shall not be able to go around the facts to discuss the Creator Himself as well. But our main focus here on this site shall be on Jesus. Because he was already spoken of by the creation of man we shall not be able to skip this facet of his life, plus it will be also very important to brake with the very big misunderstanding of lots of Christians who want to believe in many gods having taken part in the creation (see later in the posting “The very very beginning”)

The onset of this site is not to go deeper into theism. For that there is “Stepping Toes” a.o..

To argue for a theism perspective rather than simply giving a defense for Christianity seems to work best for our post-modern/post-Christian cultural trend. With all the Christians out there who are giving Christianity a bad name in their efforts to re-Christianize society, in their rather prejudiced and unloving ways of interacting, and in their schizophrenic reading of the Bible with Jesus preaching one thing and the Old Testament preaching another, it seems best that if anyone is going to journey away from atheism towards theism, they should first take the relatively small step towards simply believing in a deity. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

Today we are too often confronted with Christians giving Christianity a bad name. They often give each other bad names and shout horrible things to Christians who do not believe the same as they. Often they also soon menace the other and threaten with hell, for them a place of damnation and eternal torture. Many people noticing that going on on the worldwibe web, start loosing their interest in the Christian community, considering them a bunch of little children fighting and quibbling all the time with each other.

Today on the net lots of things are presented as

rather matter-of-factly and “well, it’s obvious that…” A true skeptic and atheist would rankle at that kind of presentation and be turned off by it. Perhaps this is part of the problem with all apologetic literature in this post-modern era. Relationships are treasured over rationality and it is difficult to build a relationship with an author when all you have is text on the page. {Book Review: The End of Unbelief}

On this site are focus is only going to be mostly on one part of believe matter in the Christian Faith, namely on the person of Jesus Christ and what he said and how his followers have continued or not in the tradition of this Jewish Master Teacher and how by time several teachers used the teachings of that rabbi in a different way, altering what he said but also altering the person himself as well. We shall see that even the majority of Christians do not any more belief what God the heavenly Father said about His son and what the son himself said about himself and about his heavenly Father. that has become the whole problem of Christendom and making it so much more the difficult for people to find the true path, or the Way Christ Jesus prepared for them.

Do not worry when you have many doubts and question about Jesus and God, the Bible and what is going to happen to the world. If you are also troubled by the many different visions of the many denominations and are disgusted how certain church people behave, like the abusing priests, a.o., always do know that you are then looking at man, human beings with their own faults and limitations. Do not concentrate on their words as always having to be true. Compare all the sayings of people, churches, with what is really written in the Bible and listen to your heart.

By regularly reading the Bible you shall be able to find out a lot. All answers are in it. You just have to look in it, put all human doctrines aside, and believe the words written in the book of books.

We are pleased to find you here and do hope you shall join us in the quest for life, the Way, the path of Jesus Christ our Saviour.

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  • True Image of Jesus Christ Revealed & It’s Not What You Ever Imagined! (therebel.website)
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    A….35 year old…..Jewish….lawyer…finds Jesus. If the emphasis on those three things seems a bit much, allow me to explain. We all know that the older one is, the more resistant one tends to be to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Most people, if not converted by 35 will not be.
  • Religious But Lost (altruistico.wordpress.com)
    The man was lost. That is, he did not have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. As a Pharisee, Nicodemus adhered to strict Jewish codes and laws, so he was certainly religious. But the problem of the lost person is not attitudes, conduct, or even character. We can change and control those through sheer determination, and many folks do. What people really need is a change of condition. We come into this world with a sinful nature that is bent away from God.
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  • A quick thought on labels (freethoughtblogs.com)
    The previous discussion on the varieties of New Atheism had me thinking. We’ve already tried contriving a new label for those of us who think atheism should be broad and dedicated to more than just rejecting deities and intersectional — that was Atheism+.
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    Almost one in five Britons is now an atheist as a generational shift away from religion gathers force, a poll for The Times has found.

    Experts said that the country was becoming more comfortable with atheism than with faith after the data revealed that public figures win approval for questioning the existence of God, while Christians are more than twice as likely as atheists to say that they struggle to speak openly about their beliefs.

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    That is the concrete slab of faith, what Jesus came to do and what He did through the Cross. One of the statements of faith, that was established, by the forefathers, to counteract, heresies and mysticism which tried to wrongly attach themselves to the Truth, about Christ Jesus was, The Nicene Creed. It is a wonderful statement of faith.

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22 thoughts on “Are people allowed to have doubts

  1. altruistico February 13, 2015 / 4:15 pm

    I wish to thank you for the link and your visit to my blog site. Both are greatly appreciated.

    We, you and I, have had discussions before concerning Christadelphianism and their beliefs. I do not wish for my readers or followers to believe I am endorsing your site or your belief. I do not. My explanations are outlined in the following post. http://wp.me/p26QNa-2V8

    Like

    • guestpeaker February 13, 2015 / 4:34 pm

      We do know we do have different opinion about whom Jesus is. We do not mind showing people what others do believe and do not feel hindered by showing different believes. We also consider many different Christian denominations as part of the Body of Christ and would never say we are the only faith by which people can be saved. Jesus came for all, and as such also for people where our, yours and some other denomination would not be. God knows the heart and that is going to be the most decisive element to be worthy of coming to the Kingdom of God. Everything is in the hands of the judge god allowed to decide, namely Jesus Christ the son of God.

      Like

      • altruistico February 14, 2015 / 6:33 pm

        I am not certain as to what you proclaim here in it’s entirety.
        There are over 30,000 different denominations of, what is said to be, Christianity. All of which do not fully follow the Word of God. For the fact of the matter is: “There is but One True Church”. That which is founded through, and based upon, Jesus Christ.

        Your claim “We also consider many different Christian denominations as part of the Body of Christ and would never say we are the only faith by which people can be saved” is misleading to me. In that you apparently associate “faith” as equal to “denomination”. It is not by, or through, any particular “denomination by which mankind (humanity) is saved, but by and through “faith” that Jesus Christ died in our place for all mankind to be saved.

        Different “denominations” are NOT what builds the “body of the Church”. Individuals are: Jesus tells us Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. …1 Corinthians12:27 New International Version (NIV).

        Additionally, your comment, concerning your sect: “We do know we do have different opinion about whom Jesus is.” According to the Bible there is “no” different opinions as to who Christ is. Christ literally means “Messiah” or, the “Anointed One.” God and Jesus are One. How do I know that? Jesus the Messiah Himself tells us this. First, let’s look at Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” John 8:58 is another example: “‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’”

        EL-GIBHOR: “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6) – the name describing the Messiah, Christ Jesus, in this prophetic portion of Isaiah. As a powerful and mighty warrior, the Messiah, the Mighty God, will accomplish the destruction of God’s enemies and rule with a rod of iron (Revelation:19:15).

        I hope this helps.

        May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and keep you.

        Like

    • guestpeaker February 13, 2015 / 4:43 pm

      For the readers at our site we wish to make it very clear that the Christadelphians are not at all a sect nor a cult. We also would like to invite Altruistico a better search on sects and cults and what really can be considered a sect or a cult.

      We do only follow the cornerstone of the church, which is given by God, namely Jesus Christ, about Whom God Himself said it was ‘his beloved son’. Further we do believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God which we should follow. In it is written:

      “30 the angel said to her, “don’t be afraid, Miryam, for you have found favor with god. 31 look! you will become pregnant, you will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua. 32 he will be great, he will be called son of Ha‘elyon.ADONAI, god, will give him the throne of his forefather David; 33 and he will rule the house of Ya‘akov forever—there will be no end to his kingdom.” 34 “how can this be,” asked Miryam of the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 the angel answered her, “the Ruach haKodesh will come over you, the power of Ha‘elyon will cover you. therefore the holy child born to you will be called the son of god.” (Luke 1:30-35 CJB)

      “21 while all the people were being immersed, Yeshua too was immersed. as he was praying, heaven was opened; 22 the Ruach haKodesh came down on him in physical form like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “you are my son, whom I love; I am well pleased with you.” 23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. it was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of eli,” (Luke 3:21-23 CJB)

      We would never want to give our readers the impression God did not tell the truth. Our readers may take their own Bible translation with them and compare what is written in it. Nowhere shall they find a Bible translation that says God is the one standing in the river Jordan. all honest people shall find that in the Bible is written hat God said ‘This is my beloved son.’ (And God does not tell lies according to the Scriptures and according to our faith.)

      Like

      • altruistico February 14, 2015 / 8:39 pm

        I wish to thank you for your invitation for me to “better search on what are sects and cults and what really can be considered a sect or a cult.” However, I think of myself as being proficient on the subject.

        The word sect comes from the Latin word secta, which means “school of thought.” It is a subjective term that may apply to a religious faith or denomination, or it may refer to a heretical splinter group. Sometimes, the connotation is one of disapproval, similar to the “destructive heresies” spoken of in 2 Peter 2:1, though there are no consistent or accepted exemplars to use to identify a sect.

        Sects are found in all religions. Islam has Sunnis and Shias, Judaism has Orthodox and Karaites, Hinduism has Shiyaism and Shaktism, and Christianity has Baptists and Lutherans. These are all examples of religious sects, and they can be thought of as “branches” of different religions. There are also non-religious sects, such as capitalists and socialists among economists, or Freudians and Jungians among psychiatrists.

        In contradistinction, the word cult always carries a negative connotation. There are specific criteria used to identify a cult. In Combatting Cult Mind Control, deprogrammer Steven Hassan singles out what he refers to as “destructive cults,” which he defines as “a pyramid-shaped authoritarian regime with a person or group of people that have dictatorial control. It uses deception in recruiting new members (e.g. people are NOT told up front what the group is, what the group actually believes and what will be expected of them if they become members).” Hassan also correctly points out that cults are not only religious; they may also be commercial or secular in nature.
        [For full disclosure on this topic see my post What is the difference between a sect and a cult? @ http://wp.me/p26QNa-23V%5D [see also: What is the Occult @ http://wp.me/p26QNa-25Q%5D

        Much of what you say, concerning Jesus, and His birth, is mostly factual. The Angel, Gabriel, descended from Heaven and spoke to Miriam (old world name translated to Mary) and told her she would give birth to a son. You will name Him Jesus [“Emmanuel or Immanuel.” ]

        22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). Matthew 1:22 -23 Why do I mention both Jesus, as His name to be given, and Emmanuel or Immanuel?

        Because Christadelphian’s do not believe that God and Jesus are one. Although you claim to place the Word of God, the Bible, in the highest of esteem; you neglect this one very important truth: “God and Jesus are the same.”

        How do I know that Jesus and God are One? Well, first you must understand the differences between What is the meaning of the Incarnation of Christ?” and “What is the hypostatic union?”

        Incarnation is a term used by theologians to indicate that Jesus, the Son of God, took on human flesh. This is similar to the hypostatic union. The difference is that the hypostatic union explains how Jesus’ two natures are joined, and the Incarnation more specifically affirms His humanity.

        The word incarnation means “the act of being made flesh.” It comes from the Latin version of John 1:14, which in English reads, “The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.” Because of the near-exclusive use of the Latin Vulgate in the church through the Middle Ages, the Latin term became standard.

        Biblical support for Jesus’ humanity is extensive. The Gospels report Jesus’ human needs including sleep (Luke 8:23), food (Matthew 4:2; 21:18), and physical protection (Matthew 2:13-15; John 10:39). Other indications of His humanity are that He perspired (Luke 22:43-44) and bled (John 19:34). Jesus also expressed emotions including joy (John 15:11), sorrow (Matthew 26:37), and anger (Mark 3:5). During His life, Jesus referred to Himself as a man (John 8:40), and after His resurrection His humanity was still recognized (Acts 2:22).

        The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

        Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

        The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

        Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.

        Jesus Himself said it many times. For example: who did Jesus claim to be? Who does the Bible say He is? First, let’s look at Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement as a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).

        John 8:58 is another example: “‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’” Again, in response, the Jews took up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Jesus’ announcing His identity as “I am” is a direct application of the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14). Why would the Jews again want to stone Jesus if He had not said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

        John 1:1 says “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. The apostle Paul describes Him as, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). The apostle Peter says the same, “…our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:1). God the Father is witness of Jesus’ full identity as well, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” Old Testament prophecies of Christ announce His deity, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).

        So, as C.S. Lewis argued, believing Jesus to be only a good teacher is not an option. Jesus clearly and undeniably claimed to be God. If He is not God, then He is a liar, and therefore not a prophet, good teacher, or godly man. In attempts to explain away the words of Jesus, modern “scholars” claim the “true historical Jesus” did not say many of the things the Bible attributes to Him. Who are we to argue with God’s Word concerning what Jesus did or did not say? How can a “scholar” two thousand years removed from Jesus have better insight into what Jesus did or did not say than those who lived with, served with, and were taught by Jesus Himself (John 14:26)?

        Why is the question over Jesus’ true identity so important? Why does it matter whether or not Jesus is God? The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus’ deity is why He is the only way of salvation. Jesus’ deity is why He proclaimed, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

        In conclusion you make the statement: “Nowhere shall they find a Bible translation that says God is the one standing in the river Jordan. all honest people shall find that in the Bible is written hat God said ‘This is my beloved son.’ (And God does not tell lies according to the Scriptures and according to our faith.)”

        The truth is; “if your readers know who God is, then they will know that it was God standing in the River Jordan. Incarnated as a man whose name was Jesus……

        May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Marcus Ampe February 15, 2015 / 9:05 am

          OK, when you consider Anabaptists, Baptists, Lutherans, Calvinists and your own denomination a sect, with the idea it has its own specific teachings, like the followers of Jesus where called the Jewish sect The Way, than we could be at peace with you calling us a sect, though that is not any more what people today understand by hearing the word “sect”.

          You mention Jesus with Emmanuel and Immanuel as if him having that name woudl mean he is God. In such instance my own brother called Emmanuel is God according to your thinking as well as al those other people being named Immanuel, Emmanuel, Jeshua, Jesus, Joshua, Yahushua, Jahushua. (!?!)

          Naturally the verses you mention to show Jesus incarnation clearly show Jesus was human, because that is also what we think Jesus really was, a man of flesh and blood. Jesus himself showed his wounds to the disciples, after his resurrection and told them that he was no spirit. In case Jesus is God he once more told not the truth, like he also would not have told the truth when he said he did not know when he would come back and did not know who would be seated next to him in heaven, because God knows everything.

          Does “united without loss of separate identity” not mean the person does not loose any of his attributes when he is one or the other though keeping the full identity of the one he is in one character. So how do you see then the position of Jesus in heaven now? Do you still consider him to be in the same form, as human body of flesh and blood, being seated next to his Father, lower than angels, though Scriptures tell us he is now higher than angels, and also give us the impression all bodies shall be changed after their resurrection?

          John 10:30, “I and the Father are one” tells us about the attitude of Jesus opposite his heavenly Father, like a CEO, a boss, a director, man and wife, parent and children are one, it does not mean they are one and the same person, but one in spirit. It means they feel the same and go for the same values. A CEO of a company being one with his company does not make that company a person, neither having a company able to think and handle on its own. Jesus could not do the miracles without his Father and said so. Or did Jesus once more tell lies (not telling the truth) when he said:

          “Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.” (John 5:19 ASV)

          “I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30 ASV)

          “For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38 ASV)

          “Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that {1} I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things. {1) Or [I am] he: [and I do]}” (John 8:28 ASV)

          “For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 12:49 ASV)

          “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.” (John 14:10 ASV)

          “Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 ASV)

          did also the apostles not tell the truth, like Paul saying:
          “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3 ASV)

          “And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28 ASV)

          Worse of all why did the angel did not tell Mary she was going to bring God Himself onto the world and why God not tell the world it was Him standing there in the river Jordan but said misleadingly that it was His son?

          “30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found {1} favor with God. {1) Or [grace]} 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob {1} for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. {1) Gr [unto the ages]} 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also {1} the holy thing which is begotten {2} shall be called the Son of God. {1) Or [that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God] 2) Some ancient authorities insert [of thee]}” (Luke 1:30-35 ASV)

          “21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,” (Luke 3:21-23 ASV)

          Jesus his preaching was then also very misleading giving clearly indication we only had to worship One God and pray like him to the heavenly Father, not worshipping him (Jesus) but the Only One Most High Elohim? and with that Most High he did not mean himself but the Adonai Hashem Jehovah.

          Jesus also told us he was placed on this earth not to do his own will, but the will of his Father in heaven. In case Jesus is Gos Jesus his will is also God his will, or how can they be both different wills? And how can he be doing things not of himself and not according to his will, when he is not giving his thoughts in the hands of the other, to Whom he himself prayed and even asked why He had abandoned him? Though how can someone abandon himself?

          “For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38 ASV)

          “Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that {1} I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things. {1) Or [I am] he: [and I do]}” (John 8:28 ASV)

          “For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 12:49 ASV)

          “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.” (John 14:10 ASV)

          About John 1:1 which you want to give it a twist saying it is speaking about the Word itself being The God instead of being a god, which is a title and not a name like the word is not a person but an element or an action of speaking.

          John 1.1: “In the beginning existed the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was a god.” (The Monotessaron)

          or: “In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (Emphatic Diaglott – interlineary side)

          Christ was not literally the Word. He was the word “made flesh”. (#Jo 1:14). The Greek word “logos” translated “Word” expresses the divine intention, mind, or purpose.1 Young defines “logos” as “a word, speech, matter, reason.”2 In the a.v. “logos” is translated by more than 20 different English words and is used for utterances of men (e.g., #Jo 17:20) as well as those of God (#Jo 5:38).

          You also may not forget that the apostle John wants to write his book like the Torah, presenting a new law for a new era, the New World. He presents the Bereshit or Genesis of the New World, the world of Christ, where that new world with the second Adam was created by God (and not by Christ).

          God had spoke and as such things came into being. So also spoke God in the Garden of Eden and promised that he would sent a solution for the first sin man made. That solution spoken of before Abraham was born (therefore ‘before Abraham’) was also spoken of at many other occasions in time. Several men of God told about that saviour which would come. Also messengers of God (angels) spoke about that promised one, and as such Mary also got to know she would receive from the Almighty Highest that what would overshadow all the rest of the world.(Luke 1:30-35)

          Every time there was been spoken it was a word that sounded. As the word of God sounded and brought things to being, Jesus was also made into being.
          “In the beginning was the Word  …  all things were made by him.”3 “logos” does not in itself denote personality. It is personified by the masculine gender in the a.v., The Diaglott avoids confusion by translating the pronouns in the neuter-“through it every thing was done.”4 An Old Testament parallel to the personification of logos is the personification of wisdom: “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” (#Pr 8:22, 23). In this passage, wisdom is personified as a woman. (#Pr 8:1, 2).

          “All things were made by him”-John is not saying all things where made by Jesus but is apparently alluding to the creation recorded in Genesis. God spoke, and it was done (e.g. “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” (#Ge 1:3). Notice another allusion- #Jo 1:7, 8). But this creation was not accompanied by Christ, but by the “logos” of God. This is indicated by several passages:

          a. “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” “For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.” (#Ps 33:6, 9). See also #Ps 107:20; 147:15, 18, 19; Isa. 55:11).

          b. ”  …  by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water  …  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” (#2Pe 3:5, 7).

          c. See also (#Heb 11:3) cf. (#Jer 10:12, 13).5

          I present here also translations where the name of God is omitted, but when you go to the original version you will find “Jehovah”. The Elohim or Adonai is the Lord of the lord of lords, but with many translations omitting God’s name confusion came all about.

          Never claimed Jesus to be God and always directed he his listeners to look for God and to listen to God, with the understanding that he showed them the way to the Most High, Whom they had to worship and Who is Only One God.

          At the beginning of the apostolic times the followers of Christ Jesus were considered to be a Jewish sect. Their faith was based on the classic traditional monotheist faith of the People of God, the People of Israel, the Jews. Jesus coming from an Essene, and therefore a very traditional devout Jewish family, grew up in a family where they believed in Only One God. Jesus also worshipped the God of Abraham, which was considered by the Jews the Only One True God.

          The Christadelphians do have the same faith as the Jews, in the Only One True God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. Jesus was in perfect agreement with a Jewish scribe, as together they discussed the greatest of all questions we humans must face. Who is God?
          So prepare now to hear what Jesus commands us in terms of our definition of God.

          In the New testament we do find:

          “24 Jesus said unto them, Is it not for this cause that ye err, that ye know not the scriptures, nor the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as angels in heaven. 26 But as touching the dead, that they are raised; have ye not read in the book of Moses, in [the place concerning] the Bush, how God spake unto him, saying, {1} I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? {1) Ex 3:6} 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: ye do greatly err.

          28 And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What commandment is the first of all? 29 Jesus answered, The first is, {1} Hear, O Israel; {2} The Lord our God, the Lord is one: {1) De 6:4 ff 2) Or [The Lord is our God; the Lord is one]} 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God {1} with all thy heart, and {1} with all thy soul, and {1} with all thy mind, and {1} with all thy strength. {1) Gr [from]} 31 The second is this, {1} Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. {1) Le 19:18} 32 And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Teacher, thou hast well said that he is one; and there is none other but he:” (Mark 12:24-32 ASV)

          Clearly for Jesus the Most High Elohim Creator deity is only One as is also written in the Book Deuteronomy of the Old Testament

          “Hear, O Israel: {1} Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: {1) Or [Jehovah our God, Jehovah is one]; Or [Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one]; Or [Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone]}” (Deuteronomy 6:4 ASV)

          For Jeshua or Jesus Jehovah is his God and is only one, not two or three.
          Jesus also added we should love that One God with all our heart.

          “And he said unto him, {1} Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. {1) De 6:5}” (Matthew 22:37 ASV)“And he answering said, {1} Thou shalt love the Lord thy God {2} with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; {3} and thy neighbor as thyself. {1) De 6:5. 2) Gr [from] 3) Le 19:18}” (Luke 10:27 ASV)

          We as Christadelphians do love God and do love His creation. They want to open their heart to all people and not only just to some who belong to the same denomination as they. We also want to give attention to other minded persons and do respect them for what they think and feel. This cannot be said about those who call themselves Christians and attack us.

          As we can find in the New Testament Jesus stated that God is a single Lord. He uttered the Jewish unitarian creed and made it the pinnacle of good Christian understanding and practice.

          What else can we say about this One God of Jesus’ creed?

          He could not possibly be the triune God of traditional Christendom. Jesus is on record as recognizing no god but the God of his Jewish heritage based on the Scriptures preserved as God’s oracles. That God was never the Trinity. Jesus was not a Trinitarian, on the plainest evidence of his testimony in Mark 12:28-34. He himself never claimed to be God and knew very well he could not do anything without his Father in heaven.

          Angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his logos. Christ is the complete manifestation of the logos-“in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (#Col 2:9). It was the “logos” which was in the beginning with God, not Christ. When the “word was made flesh” (#Jo 1:14) then, and then only, Christ became the “Word”. Christ is called the Word (#Re 19:13) cf. (#1Jo 1:1; Lu 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (#Jo 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls.

          We have to be careful not to take substantives as persons, not making “a word” into being a god or the God, “wisdom” not being a god or the God, like you have so many others some are taking as God.

          + Notes:

          1 This can be supported by evaluating all references to “logos” in the New Testament and the Septuagint.

          2 Robert Young, Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, (London: Lutterworth Press, 1965). a.v. Authorized King James Version of the Bible e.g. For example

          3 It is sometimes argued that the “beginning” referred to in John 1:1 is the beginning of Christ’s ministry. 1 John 1:1 is offered in support of this interpretation. It should be noted, however, that John’s allusions in John 1 are drawn from Genesis 1 as point 3 outlines, thereby implying that the beginning refers to the same narrative and not to the ministry of Christ.

          4 Benjamin Wilson, The Emphatic Diaglott, (Brooklyn: International Bible Students Ass., Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1942).

          5 It is also noteworthy that although the writer to the Hebrews speaks in exalted terms of Christ (e.g. “express image of his {God’s } person”-#Heb 1:3), “logos” is used of God’s message, and not of Christ himself. See (#Heb 2:2; 4:2,12; 7:28; 12:19) and (#Heb 13:7, 22).

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        • Marcus Ampe February 15, 2015 / 9:45 am

          You yourself do know why the question over Jesus’ true identity is so important and I do think yourself consider it also so important that people should know Jesus really died and was taken out of the dead after three days in hell. (!?!)

          It really matters a lot “whether or not Jesus is God”. In case Jesus is God this would make of God a very unrighteous cruel identity, having letting His creations suffer such a long time and even letting them suffer an other thousand years after he faked his death after putting up His charade of doing like he could be tempted, could have deficiencies, illnesses, having to learn everything and so on. why did He not make straight away en end to this bad situation? Also your way of thinking makes it that God could not create a being able to fulfil His wishes. Making it that no man is capable to follow God’s commandments, doing God His will and not his own will, makes ridicule of every man, and making it impossible for any person to become like Christ, because nobody can become like God or become God, though the bible tells us to “become as Christ” and to put his armour on. How can we put God’s armour on.

          Why would God have to reside three days in hell and what use would his resurrection from the dead be?

          When Jesus is a man of flesh and blood everything makes sense and then we do have an example of what can happen also to us. To us is given salvation by the death of Christ and is given a marvellous example how we too can be taken out of the dead, like Jesus was lifted up.

          Why is Jesus is not God his death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)? This is nullifying and ridiculling the act of Christ, the Nazarene man. Also you saying “Only God could pay such an infinite penalty” makes it impossible for any man to live according God’s Will.

          Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21 do not say what you want us to believe it says. where does it say “God only can pay such infinite penalty”?

          “But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8 ASV)

          “Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21 ASV)

          It wants to denote:
          “But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)” (Romans 3:5 ASV)

          In Scriptures is further explained how salvation and why came onto us:

          “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 )
          “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13)
          “nor height, nor depth, nor any other {1 } creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. {1) Or creation }” (Romans 8:39)

          In Jesus we may find the person to believe he restored the relationship between God and man. He became the highpriest. In case Jesus is God how and why should he be a highpriest for himself?

          Why would God have to pay a debt? Everything belongs already to God. Why would God have to give something to Him which is already of Him? What is the use of it. What is the use of all the charade by coming onto the world, doing to be tempted, doing to be tortured, doing to be killed, though man can do nothing to God.

          Why could Jesus not pay his, our or anybodies debt? As you yourself remarks: “Jesus had to be man so He could die”. You too know very well that “Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ”. We do have that faith, like the first followers of Jesus had faith in Christ Jesus and did beleive he was the Messiah.

          “40 One of the two that heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He findeth first his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being interpreted, {1} Christ). {1) That is [Anointed]; Compare Ps 2:2}” (John 1:40-41 ASV)

          We cannot see Jesus but we can and do believe he is that one spoken of by the apostles and by the prophets who lived already before Jesus. We want and do believe without seeing.

          where do you get it for that it is “Jesus’ deity is why He is the only way of salvation”. The bible tells us clearly that Jesus is the Way to life. It nowhere says “Jesus’ deity is why He proclaimed”. The bible, which we consider the infallible Word of God shows us ways to find who is the promised saviour Who God wanted to accept as a ransom and about whom God is pleased.

          The bible, the Holy Scriptures, clearly tells us what we do believe that Jesus is “the way and the truth and the life”. No one comes to the Father except through him. (John 14:6). And that is what you yourself also say but do not seem to believe fully, because you want not to accept Jesus for what he really has done and for whom he really is.

          Or either you believe also like us that Jesus is the Way, but have another view which you and me shall have to see, and which we do believe shall all become clear at the Last Days, when Jesus (and not God) shall come to judge the living and the dead. We also beleive that later on Jesus shall hand over the Kingdom of God back to his heavenly father; In case he is God there is nothing to hand over to himself because it belongs already to himself and he has it already in his hands. So how would you explain,:

          “But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the {1} thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, {2} from everlasting. {1) Or [families]; See Jud 6:15. 2) Or [from ancient days]}” (Micah 5:2 ASV)

          “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor {1} the ruler’s staff from between his feet, {2} Until Shiloh come; And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be. {1) Or [a lawgiver] 2) Or [Till he come to Shiloh, having the obedience of the peoples]; Or according to Syr [Till he come whose it is etc]}” (Genesis 49:10 ASV)

          “5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous {1} Branch, and he shall reign as king and {2} deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. {1) Or [Shoot]; Or [Bud] 2) Or [prosper]} 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: {1} Jehovah our righteousness. {1) Or [Jehovah is our righteousness]}” (Jeremiah 23:5-6 ASV)

          “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, {1} a {2} virgin {3} shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name {4} Immanuel. {1) Or [the] 2) Or [maiden] 3) Or [is with child, and beareth] 4) That is [God is with us]}” (Isaiah 7:14 ASV)

          “Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and {1} made intercession for the transgressors. {1) Or [maketh]}” (Isaiah 53:12 ASV)

          “And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; {1} although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {1) Or [because]}” (Isaiah 53:9 ASV)

          “18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 ASV)

          “Jesus saith to her, {1} Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. {1) Or [Take not hold on me]}” (John 20:17 ASV)

          “23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: {1} for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. {1) Or [for such the Father also seeketh]} 24 {1} God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. {1) Or [God is spirit]}” (John 4:23-24 ASV)

          “but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,” (Galatians 4:4 ASV)

          “40 One of the two that heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He findeth first his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being interpreted, {1} Christ). {1) That is [Anointed]; Compare Ps 2:2}” (John 1:40-41 ASV)

          “25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].” (John 4:25-26 ASV)

          “[even] Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.” (Acts 10:38 ASV)

          “5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times;” (1 Timothy 2:5-6 ASV)

          “in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,” (Ephesians 1:7 ASV)

          “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 ASV)

          “9 Herein was the love of God manifested {1} in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him. {1) Or [in our case]} 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:9-10 ASV)

          “He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that {1} obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. {1) Or [believeth not]}” (John 3:36 ASV)

          “And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 ASV)

          “On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that {1} taketh away the sin of the world! {1) Or [beareth the sin]}” (John 1:29 ASV)

          “To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43 ASV)

          “9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9-10 ASV)

          “14 And I {1} say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {1) Gr [have said]} 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his {1} temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them. {1) Or [sanctuary]} 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat: 17 for the Lamb that is in the midst {1} of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes. {1) Or [before]; See Re 4:6; compare Re 5:6}” (Revelation 7:14-17 ASV)

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          • altruistico February 15, 2015 / 5:28 pm

            The origin of our conversation was, and remains, is God the Father One with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Not all of this other stuff you suffer through trying to show yourself “so knowledgeable about scripture. In other words you’re beginning to sound like a Pharisee praying before men. It serves only yourself.

            You and I live in a three-dimensional world. All physical objects have a certain height, width, and depth. One person can look like someone else, or behave like someone else, or even sound like someone else. But a person cannot actually be the same as another person. They are distinct individuals.

            God, however, lives without the limitations of a three-dimensional universe. He is spirit. And he is infinitely more complex than we are.

            That is why Jesus the Son can be different from the Father. And, yet the same.

            The Bible clearly speaks of: God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. But emphasizes that there is only ONE God.

            If we were to use math, it would not be, 1+1+1=3. It would be 1x1x1=1. God is a triune God.

            Thus the term: “Tri” meaning three, and “Unity” meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet three “Persons” who have the same essence of deity. Some have tried to give human illustrations for the Trinity, such as H2O being water, ice and steam (all different forms, but all are H2O). Another illustration is an egg having a shell, egg yolk and egg white, but this egg illustration shows that there would be “parts” to God, which isn’t the case.

            God the Son (Jesus) is fully, completely God. God the Father is fully, completely God. And God the Holy Spirit is fully, completely God. Yet there is only one God. In our world, with our limited human experience, it’s tough to understand the Trinity. But from the beginning we see God this way in Scripture. Notice the plural pronouns “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 — Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

            Though not a complete list, here is some other Scripture that shows God is one, in Trinity:
            •”Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!” (Deut. 6:4)

            •”I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” (Isa. 45:5)

            •There is no God but one. (1Cor. 8:4)

            •And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” (Matt. 3:16-17)

            •”Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” (Matt. 28:19)

            •Jesus said: “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30) [Jesus said this Himself]

            •”He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9) [Jesus said this Himself]

            •”He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me.” (John 12:45) [Jesus said this Himself]

            •If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom. 8:9) [Jesus said this Himself]

            •”Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matt. 1:20)

            •And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

            •[Jesus speaking to His disciples] “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.” … “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.” (John 14:16-17, 23)
            If I had the time I’d truly like going into this deeper. But time does not always allow.

            Let me make this very, very clear. I do not condemn you or your beliefs. As Christians we are supposed to come together and unify the Church and let others share in His word. In other words, to share the Gospel of Christ with all of the world and humanity everywhere. A house divided can not stand… Christ said this. God and His word is truth…… But we are also told “do not be unequally yoked with the unbelievers……….. ”

            May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours. May His face shine upon you and his peace be forever yours.

            Shalom, my brother in Christ.

            Like

            • Marcus Ampe February 16, 2015 / 8:48 am

              Please can you let me know where you get it from that “God, however, lives without the limitations of a three-dimensional universe.”
              Where does the bible speak of “God the Son”?
              The bible speaks about the Spirit of God, but it does not present it as an other person, but as the Force of God = an element, a substantiation, = not a person.

              The verses you quote like Deut. 6:4, Isa. 45:5,1Cor. 8:4 not at all say god is a Trinity but say clearly that God is one and that there is no other God besides Him.

              You yourself says “(John 12:45) [Jesus said this Himself]” quoting that Jesus is owned by God who had sent him, which does not mean he is God, but that God had sent Jesus = that it is not God Himself Who came down, but someone (God’s son) Who God placed on earth.

              Matt. 3:16-17 also does not say Jesus is God but says Jesus is the son of God.

              I do not see any reference to the position of Jesus being God in Rom. 8:9 which according to my understanding speaks about our relationship with Christ and with God. Telling us we do have to have the spirit of Christ, not of God and as such should be like Christ, having the same intentions, trying to do not our will, like Jesus did not his will, but trying to do the will of Jesus his Father in heaven.

              You also are twisting the words of Luke 1:35 which does not say at all that Jesus is God the son but clearly says Jesus is the son of God, a total difference, which you do not seem to notice. There is written Jesus comes from God (= not being God) and is His beloved so and would also be called “Son Of God” not “God the son” though if would that have been written there it would also be possible because many people do call Jesus God the son, which he isn’t and like many call others god, like Cloony, Presly, Maradonna, Mohammad Ali, Spears a.o.. Please do note that there is clearly written in Scriptures: “for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God”

              Like

              • altruistico February 16, 2015 / 3:22 pm

                The problem here is not of “me” saying something “different from the Bible”; it is your failure to read what is written by me and your twisting it. For example: You ask me “Please can you let me know where you get it from that “God, however, lives without the limitations of a three-dimensional universe.”
                Do you think that God somehow “does” live within the confines of a 3-demensional world (universe)? He does not and, I never implied He did.. For God is Omnipresent and Omnipotent His ways are not our ways and we are incapable of understanding God fully.

                When God speaks in plural terms, “We shall make” them in “Our image” He is speaking of “just Him alone? Now remember, God said it in a plural sense…. not one but many. He refers to Himself, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

                There is but one true church, there is but one truth. It is in the Bible…. fully the Word of God. Now you are able to see why there are so many denominations, sects and cults. It is because man has failed to follow the scriptures and has been mislead by Satan, the Great Deceiver… The Bible tells us that God came to earth as a man……. to live amongst us. It was prophesized in the old testament and fulfilled in the new.

                Under the Old Covenant man sacrificed animals for the atonement of sin… The sacrifice then was to cover the sin of that man…. yet, God knew it was not enough so He came to earth in the form of man (son of man in the genealogy of God’s chosen people) and became flesh… to become the ultimate sacrifice for all of man’s sins.

                Open your eyes and see the truth of God’s Word(s). Do not be deceived any longer; for Christ has said, “for whom I set free is free indeed.” Only the spirit of God through Jesus Christ can set us both free and apart. It is the whole word of God that we should seek and not just those someone else told us to apply and seek out.

                Christ was more than man…….. He is God incarnate – who came to dwell amongst us. Let me give you three who’s and one what”. The who’s: Father; Son and Holy Ghost (Spirit). The what’s? God, God and God.
                Let me show you this way:

                Basically, there are three persons, each person is God, each person is distinct, and there’s only one God.

                One simple way to get at the difference between person and substance/essence/nature is to say that the Trinity is “three who’s” and “one what.”

                To help you try to think through the difference between a “who” and a “what,” we thought about some examples:

                Who are you? Jasper Michael Justin
                What are you? Dog Archangel Human Being

                Applied to God, it looks like this:

                Who are you? Father Son Holy Spirit
                What are you? God God God

                I hope that you will free yourself from the darkness you, and others like you, are in.

                God bless you.

                Like

                • Christadelphians February 18, 2015 / 5:44 pm

                  God speaks in the Pluralis Majestatis like any high person specks in the plural for him and not for some others. When the king, queen, CEO, director says “we” it is him speaking for him and for his country or company or school, but he is only one person.

                  Like

                  • altruistico February 18, 2015 / 5:52 pm

                    There is a new post out today entitle “what is logos? You might enjoy reading it. Also, tomorrow, February 19th are two of which you may find interesting s well. Thank you, brother.

                    Like

                • Christadelphians February 18, 2015 / 5:46 pm

                  is your “one true church, there is but one truth” then the Roman Catholic Church and do you say your sect is also falling out of it?

                  Like

                  • altruistico February 18, 2015 / 5:54 pm

                    Sorry, I do not understand your statement/question. Could you please rephrase this for me?
                    Thank you.

                    Like

  2. Wally Fry February 13, 2015 / 5:04 pm

    Great post very informative.Thanks for visiting and that link!

    Like

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